Allegations without substance

JOHN Hemming, the Liberal Democrat Member of Parliament, represents a Birmingham constituency. You could, however, be forgiven for imagining that he has a seat in our own States Assembly.

JOHN Hemming, the Liberal Democrat Member of Parliament, represents a Birmingham constituency. You could, however, be forgiven for imagining that he has a seat in our own States Assembly.

Why? Because he seems to be at least as concerned about what may or may not have happened in Jersey as he is about affairs in his own backyard.

In the House of Commons earlier this week Mr Hemming, a political ally of former Senator Stuart Syvret, asserted that this Island is utterly corrupt and a hotbed of conspiracies and cover-ups. We have, of course, heard all this before, but the one thing that is consistently missing from these allegations is any sort of proof that would stand up to serious scrutiny.

All sorts of wild accusations about the Island and the supposed perfidy of its authorities fly about on the internet – but so do reports of flying saucers and alien abductions.

It is also worth pointing out that if many of these allegations were published in this newspaper it would very likely find itself in court facing a series of libel actions – which would be indefensible through lack of supportive evidence. But the bloggers who are responsible for defaming all and sundry online have little to fear on this score because potential litigants realise that they are men of straw incapable of paying any damages awarded against them.

Meanwhile, given that the UK has an explicit and well recognised duty to ensure the good governance of the Channel Islands, does Mr Hemming really believe that successive governments of various political hues have turned a blind eye to the scandals that he claims to detect? Perhaps he believes that the massive cover-up he is so eager to expose extends all the way to the UK’s corridors of power.

Meanwhile, someone from even further afield than John Hemming, US journalist Leah McGrath Goodman, is keen to investigate the historic child abuse issue. The key word here is investigate, so although she has been refused entry by the UK Border Agency over what seems to have been a visa problem – though some detect yet another conspiracy – our authorities should clearly make every effort to see that she is permitted to visit.

Honest investigation is to be welcomed – even if uncomfortable truths emerge. Unsupported slander fired from the hip under the protective cloak of parliamentary privilege is not.

Comments for: "Allegations without substance"

Geeky Blogger

I could not have put it any better myself.

For so long we have heard these claims or cover ups yet after so many years nothing of proper substance has ever presented for people to see and rumour mongering on blogs forever in the day is not a substitute for hard facts.

Freaky Fogger

That's right. If you block your ears and eyes you can imagine that all is well.

Comforting isn't it.

But what's that smell ?

Blache Pierre, HDLG, LLP, Hijacked Electoral Commission, Dita and the prince of careful driving.........

All figments of a deluded imagination are they ?

Mike

FF sounds like a certain paranoid deputy I know.

Julian

"All sorts of wild accusations about the Island and the supposed perfidy of its authorities fly about on the internet – but so do reports of flying saucers and alien abductions."

YUP! Thats about right!

Funny how we have a current States Deputy involved in all this X File nonsense at the same time with his comical though!

Demon

Parliamentary privilege is also being abused frequently in Jersey and it is time PPC got to grips with the problem and did something about these bullies who are too cowardly to repeat their accusations outside the Chamber.

Siobhan Gallichan

Hello hello... The JEP is running scared. Thing is, the blogs HAVE posted the proof - and if you guys did your jobs properly, this whole mess would have been cleared up ages ago.

Seriously, this comment from the JEP is like the Iraq Information Minister complaing about the noise of tanks....

Judas

The JEP is running scared?

How do you work that out?

Fact is that if these bloggers really believed in what they are saying about people then they should repeat their accusations in front of the Media and at the same time indemnify the Media from any repercussions.

But this will never happen because they know what they say is a tiny amount of truth mixed in with a lot of lies and that is why they are getting nowhere with it.

Sam

Judas, what on Earth are you talking about? The bloggers are CONSTANTLY on the media!

Rico Sorda has tried time and time again to get the BBC to organise an hour long debate between himself and Ian Le Marquand, and the BBC is up for it, it's ILM that refuses to do it.

The bloggers regularly try and get on the radio etc to repeat their accusations. They have nothing to hide.

You'll have to do a lot better than that...

Kid Kneestone

Judas, you say that they should repeat their accusations in front of the Media.

The 'media' are very aware of the substance of most, if not all, the allegations. Even the JEP are not that stupid not to read the blogs (?).

Unfortunately the JEP choose not to involve themselves with time-consuming investigative journalism and resort to writing the above on behalf of the etablishment.

Echoes of The Sun and Hillsborough in 1989?

It is notable, for instance, that the COM are desperately trying to water down the recommended Veritas terms of reference for the enquiry into child abuse while in state care.

Someone above mentioned the Blanche Pierre case. If anyone thinks that we should all adopt a 'nothing to see here, move along', stance to BP has seriously lost the plot. However, as that case would likely be a huge embarrassment to various government departments and civil servants the COM won't want that looked at. Lets wscrub it from Jersey's historical record - like Hansard.

Quite simply, if there is nothing to hide, no skeletons, no cover-ups, then full transparent enquiries would be welcome, not only to learn lessons and hold people to account but also to rule out those 'allegations without substance'. The JEP, like all media, should be playing their part in holding our government to account. That is their role (refer to current enquiry into media ethics if you don't agree).

The Jersey media, in its entirety, fails in that regard (and will probably edit this post too. That's OK though becuase there are other places I can post it unedited)

Naive Nelly

If it's on a blog then it must be true. It's there in black and white so it must be true.

Kid Kneestone

Your name is appropriate Nelly.

What the bloggers, and others, are not saying is that all the allegations are true.

What they are saying is that there is sufficient documentary evidence available to raise the suspicion of wrong doing.

What the JEP consistently fail to do is challenge the government on these documents, or, on the rare occasion that they do, just accept the first answer given even if the answer does not stack up against the evidence.

I challenge you to seek out the available evidence regarding Blanche Pierre for instance. Come back and tell me if you think that everyone comes out of that looking rosy!

Born Warrior

If it’s in the newspaper then it must be true. It’s there in black and white so it must be true...but what if it's not there?

Surely, if a person refuses to look for the truth then they are guilty of moral blindness.

Wendy

But what if it's not on a blog?

If absence from a newspaper points to truth, then presence on a blog rather tends to move from any veracity, on your argument.

Indeed, it might be observed that the repetitive and verbose presentation on various blogs over the past few years has reduced the argument to nothing at all.

Born Warrior

@Wendy

The truth is raw and uncomfortable, therefore, not everyone looks for it. However, those who do are well aware they must sift through the available information and filter out the valuable from the extraneous.

People tend to look to official channels first for, what should be, an unbiased insight into the truth. However, if it is not there, they will look elsewhere...in this case, to the blogs.

No-one is forced to believe what the bloggers say, but when these people provide information and data extracted from official sources; and, moreover, give feasible explanations regarding the facts...well, you can hardly blame people for reading them.

I, personally, do not wish to see others intimidated and wrongly accused. I simply want truth revelation and justice for all...including any innocent person whose reputation has been undeservedly injured by false accusations and slander.

Concerned Citizen

The Jersey authorities have been heavily constructing a cover up since 2008 and any intelligent person in Jersey who has been following the facts can see that.

Get a grip JEP on the real facts- you can start with the Graham Power defence statement. Why don't you do some real investigative journalism and argue against each point GP raised. We bloggers know that the reason why you don't and won't do this, is it will only go to prove the bloggers are correct. We all know getting rid of GP was an instrumental factor in avoiding the truth from getting out. The problem for the JEP is that it won't look good to JEP readers that you have been avoiding this type of journalism and always presenting a facade.

So it's hardly surprising therefore that while the number of people who read the blogs goes up, the numbers buying the JEP is in decline.

Jez

Are you seriously saying that Graham Power and Lenny Harper did such a great job of Haut de la Garenne that their opinions should still be taken seriously?

Kid Kneestone

Yes

Bill

Well I would think again if I were you.

Nioleux

Bill

Please read ACPO reports 1,2, 3 & 4.

Bill

Can you read them?

John Hemming

I have a lot of documentary evidence.

What is it that I have said that is not true?

Sam

Keep up the good work John. There are some of us in Jersey that have paid enough attention over the past years to know what you have said is accurate.

"the one thing that is consistently missing from these allegations is any sort of proof that would stand up to serious scrutiny."

How about the fact that Lewis said he was suspending Power based on a "damning" interim report that it later turned out was NOT damning, nor had Lewis actually seen the report!

And we only know this because of the work of Rico Sorda and the leaking of the "in camera" transcript which the States recently voted to keep secret.

If that doesn't scream "cover up" then I don't know what does!

Mike

Are you really a law student?

Lefty

He'll be after our vote soon!

Leanne D'Throll

"Lefty" says: "He’ll be after our vote soon!"

Not for a few years yet -if ever, in view of the law degree studies.

But if Sam Mézec ever does stand in Jersey then he probably has my vote in spite of me being of the liberal right and Mr. Mézec being of the liberal left.

That is because the autopilot choice between right and left is trumped by the choice between right and wrong.

I am confident that Sam could do a better job than half our intellectually and morally challenged semi-failed businessmen or block-voting Constables.

It's another fine mess they got us into - and doctoring the TOR's just gets us in deeper -don't stand for it !.

Sam

Thanks Lianne. I think you have it spot on. When Jersey is as far behind on the democracy index as it is, issues of right or left are just not as important as getting Jersey cleaned up first.

Mike

Indeed. And he won't get mine.

Sue

You claim to like democracy yet you moan like hell when someone who you don't like tops the poll!

Mike

There was ample reason to suspend Graham Power.

If you are fobbing off a Report prepared by another Police Force as irrelevant then you are living in cloud cuckoo land.

Sam

I think you've misunderstood my comment.

I've not fobbed off a report, in fact I've done the exact opposite. I've endorsed part of the Napier report which says the exact opposite of what you've just said which is that there was NOT ample reason to suspend Power and that it had been unjustified.

But even if the previous report had given reason to suspend him, what do you say to the point we now know that Lewis had not seen the report at the time of suspension, yet said in the States that the interim version of the report was damning and helped him reach his decision?

Kid Kneestone

Mike, what bit of:

"Lewis said he was suspending Power based on a “damning” interim report that it later turned out was NOT damning, nor had Lewis actually seen the report!"

..did you not understand? Shall I make it easy for you?

1. It was not a 'report by another police force'. It was an interim report prepared for non disciplinary purposes (so should not have been used as such)- so irrelevant.

2. It was, in any event, not damning - so irrelevant

3. Lewis lied when he said (a) that it was damning and (b) that he had seen it.

4. Your government decided that this should be their little secret.

Is that not a cover-up?

TrickyB

Mike - Graham Power was suspended by Andrew Lewis, ex Home Affairs minister, soley on the basis of a Met-Interim report. This report was apparently so "damning", he had no option but to suspend.

Subsequently, it has been shown, that

a) The report was incomplete,

b) these review reports are not ever supposed to be used for disciplinary purposes, rather as a review which can be used to see where things have gone well, where improvements could be made

c) The report had nothing damning in it,

d) It was later revealed via Wiltshire & Napier, that neither Andrew Lewis or Bill Ogley had ever seen this Met Interim report.

This is the equivalent of in the UK, the Home Office minister suspending the chief of the Met Police in the middle of a huge investigation - then being found out that he was suspended based solely on a Lie! The UK press would have a field day - not here though, this is Jersey........

Why are we prepared to accept these "misleads", why do our states vote for keeping this secret (in camera debate this summer just gone) and why does the JEP and the rest of the mainstream media go after the messenger, instead of investigating the contents??

Propaganda

Mike says "There was ample reason to suspend Graham Power.

If you are fobbing off a Report prepared by another Police Force as irrelevant then you are living in cloud cuckoo land."

Not according to Mr Napier there wasn't Mike, he said there wasn't justification to suspend him.

If you are fobbing off a report prpeared by a respected QC then it is you that is living in cloud cuckoo land!

Michael

I would vote for Sam he speaks a lot of sense keep it up same

trev

You always get sheep when it comes to voting, here is a case in hand...

Angel Witch

Show it all.

I would also say this claim that a certain blogger 'tells the truth' is well ill informed.

Jez

Take it to the National Media and show you are not a coward hiding under the protective cloak of parliamentary privilege then!

James

Bring it on! What's the phrase - "put up or shut up".

Dare you. Double dare you. Double dare you with knobs on.

Stop "saying" and start proving.

The Nock

Any institution that assumes itself perfect and beyond reproach will always fail. Any government that does not allow real, open and objective investigation of it's process has lost and will never gain any trust from it's constituent and will always fail. If there is nothing to hide, then why hide at all? If there is truly honest intention in all of this "cover up" then open up and show us we are wrong and that we are properly, honestly and righteously governed?.....................finally, YOU, Jersey Evening Post, for once give us a true and objective report on this and any issue, if you do not want to fail, then do that for one time. Stop being governed by a government that appears to the majority of us to be (at the very least) an obstructive and untrustworthy establishment..........

Angel Witch

The onus of proof is on John Hemming and he should take up this Government's invite.

It is pointless trying to ask the JEP to prove something is not covered up like some of these silly comments suggest when all they need to do is nothing.

John Hemming has made some unbelievable accusations and used parliamentary privilege to do so, that in its own right smells fishy and why did he think it was essential to refer to court cases that are not his business if not just to influence them?

This is somebody who is talking about justice yet at the same time meddles.

It doesn't add up.

Mike

They use or should I say 'abuse' Parliamentary Privilege to get information out there but this case is no Ryan Giggs or Mistress that kills cats. It's all based on rumour, hearsay, opinions but nothing that could be presented to court with proof.

This has always been the missing gap in the blogger claims where they try to use one man's version of events via a bitter affidavit as the basis for prosecution without any defence against the whole Island.

It is also funny how one ex states member could only come out with all this hype after he realised his popularity with the Public was waning as well. If such claims of cover up do go back decades why have we only heard about it recently from him?

The whole thing is a sham and how long these people can continue to slander and ridicule people on the Internet before they are charged with harassment offences at the very least must only be around the corner.

Pete

I echo that.

Lets see more Bloggers taken to court for their own stupid behaviour and chnages in the laws similar to the UK.

Nothing more cowardly than trying to use a blog to bully others.

Kid Kneestone

Mike

I think you might find that this one ex states member has been telling you this for years and not just since the orchestrated demise of his popularity.

i.e. LLP - for which he was suspended from the States years ago. His view of corruption in the states is nothing new. Please drop the disingenuous hyperbole.

Also notable is the selective use of prosecutions for politicians who breach the Data Protection Law. Some get busted, others don't. It depends on who you are I suppose.

Zapped

What an astonishing editorial. You precisely described my point of view 3 or so years ago, but subsequently the bloggers have come out with a mass of supporting evidence. If that evidence is false or manaufactured then shame on your newspaper for not exposing it. How the tables have turned. Your paper has now become the source of non-evidenced facts and slanderous comments - not naming the maligned ex States when everyone knows who you are referring to shows the nevernever land your headquarters has been spirited to.

Rentokil

And there we have it.. Jersey at its best..

I am completely disgusted that in all of this, everybody is more interested in outwitting and outsmarting each other than sticking to the facts that THIS ALL COMPLETELY STINKS!!

I don't give a monkeys about all the underhand ways which are being used to try and cover up the underhand ways. Someone who is speaking FROM EXPERIENCING all this, first hand, from being advised to make statements and press charges, to suffering stress and post traumatic stress, to then having more horror inflicted on them after trying to recover from flashbacks of helping the police and their enquiries into all this.

John Hemming please do your best, you know it stinks, I know it stinks, we all know people here would hate to be affiliated to monsters as they have seen how people are treated with regard to it. So they keep quiet through the shame of what has been going on for the sake of GREED and keeping up appearances. God forbid some of them who have wholeheartedly ADVOCATED all of this for years may have to be HONEST.. I would strip many of their pensions and shares and undeserved remuneration over years because, quite frankly IT IS CORRUPT..

I am tempted to phone John Hemming myself and tell him what I have experienced and my thoughts on it!!! Anyone STUPID enough to try and challenge or insult my intelligence I welcome you to.

Leanne D'Throll

Hi Rentokil,

We feel your pain.

I will not compare your anger with my own.

You will understand that after all these years there is still a battle going on and the denialists and complicit trolls are left mumbling incoherently to themselves long after they are out-smarted and out-truthed.

Even when the battle is won and a proper enquiry has been held under the UNDOCTORED terms of reference, some will still be left to deal with their personal or family loss.

Closure will come after lessons REALLY HAVE BEEN LEARNED.

Previously denialists have sneeringly asked what a child abuse "survivor" is.

Well, It is what it says on the tin - and I think I can answer that in devastating detail for anyone still lacking in emotional intelligence and empathy.

Look after yourself Rentokil, continue to build your life -and do not dispose of any vermin.

;-)

Rentokil

It is beyond frustration.

The level of arrogance and stupidity on this Island is shocking.

My tolerance levels for chancers, liars, idiots and the like are not quite what they were. I am fine, just cannot understand why a government would continually allow this farce to continue and deny the mess and disgusting legacy imposed on its inhabitants for many years.

Bored of it! Get it sorted and STOP LYING...

Leanne D'Throll

Yes, beyond frustration ! But so many still believe in Communications Department Land. Well hello "[in]Sanity".

Being a "survivor" is the first step as many do not survive after their "Formative Years" are ........ Deformed in the most cruel and bizarre ways.

(there is a reason why they are called "Formative Years")

Being a "survivor" is in itself a victory. I hope that you and and many others are [or will become] "thrivers" rather than just "survivors".

Becoming a thriver is made all the more difficult by the apparent constant obstruction and belittling by this government and it's mouthpieces in everything it says and does.

Some sort of genuine closure not only helps yesterday's children to move on but it is also the most effective protection for all our children in the future.

There is no point in saying that lessons have been learnt, when they obviously haven't.

diggle

Allegations without substance....More like Last Chance Saloon.....

Night Mr Hemming......

Sanity

Sam - Given that one of the main allegation is that everybody is too scared to say anything your very comments on this blog just prove this is rubbish.

If you are so quick to believe in blog land perhaps you should read some of the allegations made again Mr Hemming’s

Sam

Sanity, it may well be a main allegation that everybody is too scared to say anything, but if you read my comments you'll see that that is not an allegation that I have made, so I'm not sure how it's relevant.

Also, you'll note that I also haven't said anything on the actual substantive views of any blogger (all I've done is point out that one has said he is up for a public debate). I've only made reference to transcripts and reports.

I think those reports and transcripts are actually pretty good sources, would you not agree?

new Face in Hell

If its cover ups Hemming is worried about...

What about a few years ago when Stuart Syvret told the police and the media he was being blackmailed by the Tax Justice Network, specifically Richard Murphy, darling of the left.

He insisted the police investigate, because he said blackmailing a politician was a very serious matter.

Then Richard Murphy said he had e-mails that proved Stuart Syvret was lying.

Then Stuart Syvret said he didn't have time to pursue the allegations any more as he was busy with other stuff.

Stuart Syvret was not prosecuted for wsting police time.

Surely that is something for a UK MP to take up: a politician using and abusing the police in this way against an independent pressure group. But instead he let Stuart Syvret sleep on his floor for a few months.

For those who want to read more about Mr Hemming and his bizarre incident filled life, it's all here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2096762/John-Hemming-MP-centre-cat-knapping-case-2nd-child-mistress-Emily-Cox.html

Old Face in the Mirror

If you can't properly deal with what a man is saying you can always attack the man (ad hominem argument)

Yes many public figures have colourful lives. The previous and particularly the present Mayors of London are amongst my favourites. Even our very own tank-top-sporting "Sir Philip" is not exactly on his first marriage is he ?

I think that Hemming leaving his "kitten killer" wife was probably a good move.

The kitten was never found.

Presumably the evidence was disposed of.

Hmmmmm..........

Jeff

Somebody is lying.

There really is a simple way to solve this.

Have these bloggers and the people who feel wronged present their evidence to an independent non Jersey linked body. If the bloggers are proved to be falsifying facts about others then they should be shut down.

Kid Kneestone

Jeff, that is precicely what the bloggers want to happen.

A full, independent and transparent enquiry without any input by interested parties on shaving down the inconvenient parts of the terms of reference.

The enquiry should include the role of the media in all this.

Charlie David

So what's new?

Charlie David

You all know it won't make a blind bit of difference how ever much you complain Jersey has its own method of closing doors and hiding its head in the sand everything needs to be seen as Rosey !!!!! And no one ever takes accountability as with Hatue De La Garrine notice how many people involved in that have disappeared !!!!

Sanity

OK – now we have established that none of our internal “revolutionaries” give too hoots about the ability of the Jersey Government to “silence” them by the simple FACT they carry on regardless. Let’s treat the next accusation being the North Korea/Zimbabwe analogy argument with the contempt it deserves as to compare a load of revolutionary dossers on welfare with people how have been tortured and their families murdered leaves a rather bad taste although perhaps does shed a little insight into their true morals, just what exactly are the people of Jersey charged?

As for “evidence” this appears to be based solely on the muttering of the ex-senator turned prophet who Mr Hemming’s had kipping on his sofa for six months whilst in “political exile” albeit on full pay. As soon as the money ran out Mr Syvret soon forgot about his fear of ice picks and was on the next aeroplane home.

So: Jeff – Nice words but all the evidence has already been gone through by external judiciary and found to be without basis but then this is just a conspiracy.

Charlie – Given the crimes happened in the 50’s and 60’s and the average person lives to 70 have you thought about the alternative that just possible all these people, now 80/90/100+ really are dead now?

Come on – this is just a second tear MP looking for free publicity to keep him on the gravy train.

Sam

"As for “evidence” this appears to be based solely on the muttering of the ex-senator turned prophet"

Come on Sanity, if you're going to make a contribution you'll have to do far better than that. Take a scroll up and read the comments. The "evidence" people have been using are reports and transcripts. That's actually pretty concrete. No one has quoted any ex-senators here. We've been talking about what Napier said and what Lewis said.

As for Syvret coming back when the money ran out, whatever criticisms you may be able to legitimately make, that is not one of them. He actually came back to Jersey a day or two after 6 months ran out and so he automatically lost his seat. If he had come back a few days earlier, he would not have lost his seat and would have carried on being a Senator for another year and a half and carried on getting his £45k a year wage. So that doesn't stand up to scrutiny. (By the way, I'm not defending him, I'm just pointing out that that particular criticism is void of logic)

And as for the incidents being in the 50s and 60s, actually I think you'll find the home closed in 1986 and so there are plenty of victims still around who are probably younger than you. And so what if all the perpetrators are dead? That doesn't mean the government can't still have an enquiry and find out exactly who did what and get justice. (Oh and life expectancy is actually 79 for men, 84 for women, so another thing you got wrong there).

This sort of contempt for the victims of sexual abuse is exactly what gets people so angry in Jersey.

Dave

Sam, it may well be a main allegation that everybody is too scared to say anything, but if you read your comments you’ll see that that is not an allegation that I have made, so I’m not sure how it’s relevant.

Also, you’ll note that I also haven’t said anything on the actual substantive views of any blogger (all I’ve done is point out that one has said he is up for a public debate). I’ve only made reference to transcripts and reports.

I think those reports and transcripts are actually pretty good sources, would you not agree?

Demon

The conspirators keep on referring to the words of Graham Power and Lenny Harper including affidavits as hard facts when these are the people who started a media frenzy by telling us a piece of coconut was the remains of a dead child. Not forgetting all the other bits of rubbish Mr Gradwell showed us on television which Harper was convinced to be shackles and restraints.

The blogs have just dug themselves into a deeper hole over the years by believing all this rubbish and amazing how when all the worldwide journalists left at the end of 2008 they are now pinning their hopes on just one coming back to report all this guff once again.

There is no hard evidence and even the most recent BDO Scrutiny Report was described as a sham as a States Member waqs meddling iwth it before it even started. John Hemming, the puppet on the string is just making a fool of himself, but why be surprised with his track record?

Kid Kneestone

Demon

Please read the facts about the 'coconut'. They might surpise you. (Available on some blog sites) When first tested the scientists found that it contained collagen. Only mammals have collagen. Coconuts have no collagen.

Can you show me some mutant hybrid coco-mammal that has previously remained unknown to science?

Notably, by the time it had returned from further testing at Kew Gardens it was officially coconut, but wait.. the original scientists remarked that it had changed in its size, shape and colour from when they last saw it!

What do you think might have happened to this item? Where did all the collagen go? There is a unreconcilable difference between the opinions of two sets of scientists. They can't both be right can they? Has a full audit been carried out to ensure its evidential intergrity?

As for the 'shackles', please direct me to ANY media report ANYWHERE where Harper described them as shackles. You won't be able to.

Now, Mr Gradwell! According to ILM he was unlawfully leaking confidential information to a UK journalist during a live investigation. That blows his credibility somewhat.

You obviously have no appetite for reading official reports or real evidence.

Much like the JEP.

Demon

Kid Kneestone if you read the official police press releases from the time they said the fragment was so badly de-composed that if there was any collagen it had decayed away. Now to me that translates as the find containing 'no collagen'.

Maybe this is just another example of the make believe rubbish still on the blogs then!

Nioleux

Absolute rubbish Demon. You need a new translator. Or perhaps actually read the report?

If you bother reading the official report from the scientists you will have noted that a measurable amount of collagen was found. They gave the percentage.

Like Sanity, you simply make things up as you go along.

Will the real conspiracy thoerists please stand up!

Paul

I think the best report you can look at is Harper's interview with the News of the World. What was it? Kiddy killers and furnaces? That was the mentality of the man.

Humpty Dumpty

Anybody know the result of the enquiry demanded by some brave States Members into that farce of a dinner given to that News of the World journalist by Lenny Henry yet?

selective detectives

I don't think that that side of the truth would be of interest to many here, Humpty.

joker

That may be the case but it counts for very little when you consider the probability. The chances of the collagen being human is statistically very low for the location. I don't know how many species of mammals, or the number of mammals that have roamed that particular area of Jersey over the last hundred years but you can be sure that the high number of non human mammals means that it is overwhelmingly likely to be non human.

Loco

What coconut shell are you talking about? Are you talking about the piece of bone that had the *appearance* of coconut shell, but in fact contained collagen (a substance only found in animals, not plants)?

Interestingly this information was published on a blog, yet there was no mention of this in the media, and we still have people like yourselves blindly repeating the rubbish they've been peddled.

It'd be laughable if it wasn't so serious and frighting when we consider what this implies.

Staggering.

And we've not even looked into the 'fresh and fleshed' bones, the non-milk teeth that weren't there for the tooth fairy, the lime pits. All of which is 'forgotten' and all anyone talks about is this ridiculous coconut shell myth.

Nice and easy to focus on 'evidence' that undermines an investigation and to discredit anyone involved, then it all goes away and we can chuckle at these silly incompetent people in charge of the investigation, safe in the knowledge that nothing sinister ever happened.

Don't worry about the first-hand witness above saying otherwise, they're probably just mad!!

Bill

Indeed, they probably are.

The Tooth Fairy

What a sad, sick response Bill. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Whatever view people might take, it is without question that children were physically, sexually and emotionally abused at HdlG. The States have even gone as far as admitting it.

Fred

The suggestion that they are all amd wasn't Bill's, he was merely responding to the assertion of another. Read the post properly and read the reports as well.

I am not aware of any admissions.

Born Warrior

The word 'evil' is a perspective so, in perspective, who is the most evil: the perpetrators of crime or those who turn a blind eye and do nothing to expose the criminal?

The bloggers are the loudest voices on the island and, although they may be delivering messages that some would prefer not to hear, their energy is focused toward justice.

Justice means exposing the truth and bringing to light those issues which require our attention. Unfortunately, the JEP has failed to uncover the truth and thus has allowed criminal acts to be brushed off as 'petty gossip'...to a point where some people are no longer capable of determining what crime is!

Kevin

If the bloggers knew how to behave themselves instead of making stories up about people then they may just have a voice in Jersey. At the moment they are a side show for the entertainment of a minority set of people who still believe that so many people must be involved in this alleged cover up that we are talking of 100's.

From the Police including officers drafted in from the UK, to States Members and even the Courts plus Media are all involved in it.

That in its own is so ludicrous its hilarious, these people need lives.

Sam

Kevin, given that the vast majority of the contents in the blogs are just straight copy and pastes from various reports and transcripts, what you're saying would be hilarious if it wasn't tragic.

Humpty Dumpty

Including stolen ones Sam.

Do you not think that's illegal?

Nioleux

Which ones were stolen?

If something has been stolen and put on a blog I am sure the police would be able to prosecute the blogger for theft or receiving stolen property.

I take it that you have evidence to back that claim up or is it an 'allegation without substance'?

Kate

Whether a report was stolen or not is just as tenuous and difficult to prove as all the other allegations which we hear.

Doogle

Why are we consistently being bombarded with this tosh?

He said that Graham Power had been illegally suspended, well, why isn't Graham Power doing something about it then if that's what he thinks?

Moobs Like Jabber

How do you know he is not?

Rentokil

To summarise..

Insurance claims and many can affect premiums and risk of said insured party ( Jersey ) so there you have it.. Exactly WHY our Government hardly ever accept responsibility and pay pathetic amounts to civil servants, lawyers and the like.

More about protecting immoral financial gain than having a duty to its inhabitants and overall GOOD Governance it's beyond pathetic, those who fail to see how the two correlate don't kid yourselves!

joker

The duty of our government is to spend taxpayers monies wisely. Of course there are many instances where this has not been the case, the handling of this whole saga being one of them. That is not to say that compensation shouldn't be paid where it is due but the States is naturally going to dispute what it considers weak or, dare I say, false claims. As a tax payer I would expect no less.

Sanity

Sam – It’s untrue to say “contempt for the victims of sexual abuse is exactly what gets people so angry in Jersey” because I truly do not believe that such “contempt” exists within the majority of people.

What makes us so angry is that some people are using these crimes and more disturbingly the victims for political gain, using the suffering of these people to justify their (dubious) claim to the “moral” high ground.

That some politicians/would be politicians still think that this acceptable to me is sick. It has nether furthered the cause or helped a single victim.

For example had Harper investigated the crimes instead of going off on an elaborate mass murder hunts based on nothing more that a fragment of coconut and a belief in the tooth fairy this whole saga would now have been properly settled. Instead evidence has been corrupted and contaminated and the victims paraded as exhibits in an international circus fueled by his new found mates in the former and now discredited New of the World. In his mad sham of a witch hunt against a mythical and all powerful establishment he dragged Power who should have known better down with him.

So Sam – if you are going to start your political career by jumping on the sexual abuse bandwagon you know my feelings.

TrickyB

Sanity - what appears to get you mad, is the one sided stories you have read about in the paper. As I see it, no-one is using anything for "political gain", what an atrocious thing to say.

If you are so blind as to believe everything "reported" about in our accredited media, so be it - there is no getting through to some people.

If however you would like to check things out further, please read such things as (not including the affidavits) the "Met Interin report", the BDO alto report & review, APCO, Operation Tuma, Napier, the now infamous In-Camera Debate etc etc - all actual reports, (not "misreported one sided opinions") & evidence, & none reported / investigated fully by our accredited media. Then come back and say that all is sweet in our little Island.....

Nioleux

Do you just make it up as you go along Sanity? Here are some FACTS for you.

Sanity wrote - "elaborate mass murder hunt"

Harper actually said - "there is not enough evidence to call this a homicide investigation"

Sanity - "fragment of coconut"

Forensic Pathologist - "the fragment contained collagen" (only found in mammals)

Sanity - "a belief in the tooth fairy"

Forensic Pathologist - "some 65 or so children's teeth, some of which could not have come out naturally" It was Le Marquand and Gradwell who puts these down to the tooth fairy, not Mr Harper.

AS for 'nothing more than a fragment of coconut', how about, amongst other things:

. a childs femur (could not have fallen off naturally)

. numerous bones which were "fresh and fleshed when burnt" - Forensic Pathologist.

. pit dug one day, lime poured in and then covered over the next day.

Are you seriously suggesting Sanity that Mr Harper was wrong to investigate these findings? Should he have ignored them?

brian cant

The other thing that I find objectionable is the division of the world into "child abusers", "child abuse deniers" (of which I assume "those showing contempt for victims of sexual abuse" is a subset), and "decent people trying to expose the truth".

I suspect the (relatively silent) majority fit none of these catagories and are instead people who feel sympathy for the victims of child abuse, do not deny it happened, but believe that the truth is relatively simple: that HDLG was a childrens home where unpleasant things happened but that there were dozens if not hundreds of similar facilities in the UK where similar things happened during that period.

The day after the coconut truth came out, Radio 4 ran an interview with Nick Davies, the author of Flat Earth News (and previous winner of Reporter of the Year, Journalist of the Year and Feature Writer of the Year at the British Press Awards, so a pretty serious journalist). The Lennie Harper press conference was discussed as being a textbook example of how not to manage a news story.

As a result of Harper's approach, an investigation into a serious matter became a media circus that probably had the effect of burying the truth forever. After all, memories of what happened 30 or 40 years ago are fallible anyway: to try to recall through the fog of sensationalist media coverage is doubly hard and gives lawyers so much ammunition to discredit witness accounts.

This is not denial. It is a simple fact that when you are dealing with criminal acts in the past, you need to do so with care and sensitivity and, as far as possible, confidentiality. Deciding to do it through the medium of the tabloid press created the ultimate cover-up and probably rendered the truth unknowable.

Those who say there is a cover-up miss the point: the truth is not a monument that can be uncovered by digging, but a collective memory that can be corrupted by the fog of publicity.

Leanne D'Throll

Hi Sanity, is your name intended to be satirical like mine ?

There is a seminal work in the field of PR, advertising and opinion management. It is called Manufacturing Consent:The Political Economy of the Mass Media.

Here in Jersey we not only have Manufactured Consent but also, sickeningly linked, Manufactured Contempt. Not only of the victims of abuse ["historic" and otherwise] but also of any politicians or individuals who stand up for abuse victims.

At the time of posting there was no response from Sam Mézec, but I do think you had better brace yourself.

If Sam Mézec is kick starting his political career [unlikely as he has years to go of his law course] it is by being a democrat, primarily highlighting the Hijacking of the Electoral Commission.

If he requires yet further claim to the moral high ground, then he also does that by writing under his real name, which neither I nor apparently you have the "balls" to do.

The "sexual abuse bandwagon" indeed ! -That has killed careers not made them, or perhaps you have not been fully sane for the last few years.

It is no bandwagon, it is an unnecessary tragedy, an ongoing tragedy.

Loco

Please see above comments on how the coconut theory is an complete myth.

Harry

Yes, it's written down above, so it must be true. please do see it.

Gary

Instead of trying to be clever Harry, go to the actual reports in the comments mentioned above.

Fishal

Would you know, Gary, where the official reports might be found and whether or not they are, officially speaking, officially true or not?

Sam

"I truly do not believe that such “contempt” exists within the majority of people." I never said that it constituted a majority. That's the second time I've had to correct you on a caricature of my position.

As for using it for political gain, the two main bloggers have no intention of standing for office.

Have you ever entertained the thought that maybe some of these people do what they do because they are made sick by the thought that the officials in Jersey didn't do everything they could do to get justice for people that were abused? That is something I think you'd do well to feel more indignation about.

I'm not interested in any bandwagons. I'm interested in facts. So far, you have yet to present any.

joker

"As for using it for political gain, the two main bloggers have no intention of standing for office."

I find that surprising given the most constructive way for these people to maximise their impact, both in terms of gaining mainstream audience and having the power to influence policy, is not to blog or lobby but to stand for election.

Demon

Fancy finding lost milk teeth in a childrens home. Well fancy that!

You know we are still awaiting for these conspirators to give us the name of a single missing child from the time. Just a shame Harper did not have one before he started his farce of an investigation and media frenzy which looking back was one big joke.

James

I sincerely hope the States stop wasting its time on this nonsense. 4 years we have been hearing this rubbish from the blogs and they still cannot get the message that nobody is interested in their lies anymore.

Tina

Well said James.

Trollsup

So disinterested that you and "Tina" came here to comment.

Doh !

Mario

UFO's are seen on a regular basis by the military, police and civilians.

Maybe the writer has forgotten the UFO sighting near Guernsey the other year. Now he had been reminded about it I wonder if he would like to debunk it as a none event. I will take it that his letter is tosh when he can't. A lack of a response will also prove the point.

This is the typical methodology used to try and debunk a given topic, bringing in the likes of UFO's hoping the reader will be swayed by it being mentioned.

Jumbo Cod Fillet

UFOs are more likely to be found than anymore of this twaddle on mass burials up Haut de la Garenne. Some of these theories are as bad as September the 11th so surely the Blogs should be writing for the Outer Limits?

Nioleux

Jumbo, put up or shut up.

Where has there been an official report claiming mass burials?

Thanks

joker

Nioleux

If you're going to take a post literally you need to read it properly. Where does Jumbo say his comment was citing an "official report"?

RichardB

If it wasn't such a serious issue, some of the comments here are just plain comedy!

JCF - who specifically mentioned "mass burials", names & link please, or are you just being plain sensationalistic?

Brian Cant - "coconut truth"?? Again, links please - nothing I have seen states coconuts have collegen in them??

Mike, Pete, Judas etc etc - Instead of having fun trolling here, why don't you actuallt read the reports first? There is plenty out there..

I would suggest starting with the In Camera debate, leaked to the blogs in the summer. When you have seen how Andrew Lewis misled the States to suspend Graham Power, maybe you could check out the supposed "floor voids, not cellars" on Youtube with ex-deputy Hill, unless he is a dwarf, these are cellars.

Then you could maybe think, that this is not about trolling, not about you or me, this is about children that were physically, sexually and mentally abused, and the complete denial of justice, compassion or basic human rights that Jersey has decided they are not allowed to have.

Daran

Oh here we go, anybody who disagrees with the blogs is a troll!

Typical toy throwing with a failed argument.

Pete

My freedom of speech is not trolling, but try looking up the definition for starters before shooting from the hip. If there are any trolls around here its people like you and Sam who are forever arguing with people.

Humpty Dumpty

Going back to the topic in question.

It is obvious that the JEP and other Media outlets have not seen enough evidence to confirm any cover ups and its already been mentioned a number of times that the blogs rely on the words of Graham Power and Lenny Harper. This on its own is not good enough and nor are the rantings of an ex serial failing Senator either who has a record of trying to trash Jersey at any opportunity.

There is no case to answer by the Media and some of these comments about collagen in this fragment being present when there is no States of Jersey Police archived press release that confirms this just demonstrates what fantasy world these bloggers are all living in.

RichardB

"Not enough evidence" lol :)

As stated before: - Napier, Met Interim Report, APCO reports, BDO Alto & related scrutiny, July 2008 Rectangle Summary Report...are these not evidence?

Nioleux

Oh dear Humpty, is that the best you can do?

"the blogs rely on the words of Graham Power and Lenny Harper / rantings of an ex-senator."

Wrong. They rely predominantly on official reports and transcripts, which we know the 'accredited' media have also read, but choose to ignore. I, as a blog reader pay more notice to official documents and transcripts than I do to peoples opinion. I can make my own mind up.

Please read the various postings above for examples of such reports.

Does a lack of a Police press release mean that a certain fact does or does not exsist?

There is however an official scientific report available re the collagen, which you could read for yourself if you weren't deliberately turning a blind eye to it.

Please Humpty, explain the existence of this scientific report. It is not fantasy, it is real.

Pete

Can somebody do a link to this official report about collagen really being present in the fragment please?

Bill

It would seem not.....

nain

I have noticed on this site and other pro establishment sites that all the non believers ie, the people trying to belittle the bloggers all have names like ,Paul, Harry,James and Tina and also have a little conversation amongst themselves such as "Well said,James" and" yes Harry where's the proof"?You're not fooling anyone,people from all walks of life are waking up and one way or another,the truth will out. Sleep easy.

Daran

I find it unsurprising that we see the word 'troll' being banded around against people who see the bloggers for what they really are and that's story tellers.

If anything they are the trolls with all their innuendo about non existant cover ups and and the manipulation of police press releases that do not exist to make up shocking stories.

This is why the media takes no notice of them, it's obvious.

The Tooth Fairy

Top Tip

If you can't be bothered reading official documents and transcripts, just repeat over and over again that they don't exist.

It works for Daran.

"There are no American Tanks in Bahgdad" - (c) Comical Ali.

Pete

They accuse people who do not agree with them as being trolls all the time Daran.

Gary

Pete, you are not paying attention, perhaps deliberately.

'They' are not asking you to believe 'them'. 'They' are asking you, and pointing you to, the evidence that is out there.

The people who are getting called trolls are, like you, purposely ignoring the evidence and choosing instead to either repeat falsehoods or simply slag off those who have read the evidence.

little green men

The truth is out there.....beam me up scotty

Loco

For the people who still think all they found was coconut shell. This is from the official, real, not made up, not written by Syvret or another blogger Police report. Without substance indeed:

"Burnt fabric and toys from anomalies within the grounds.

Lime at the base of anomaly LR 8

Human teeth from cellars three and five

Human burnt bone from cellar 4.

Human bone from cellar 3

Human deciduous tooth from water cistern

Blood in bath. Cellar 1

50 +Human teeth cellars 3 and 4

Human bone fragments cellars 3 and 4

Blood stained cloth cellar 3

Chemical reaction in cellars 1 & 2

Shackles

Restraints

Condom wrapper cellar 1 (partial DNA profile)

Used condom. Cellar 2

Dated reading material pertinent to enquiry.

Children’s toys and written work.

Graffiti

Clothing

Shoes

Burnt bone

Burnt clothing

Burnt toys

Burnt bed sheets

65 Human deciduous teeth

Numerous human bone fragments

...

A significant amount of human remains have been recovered that is suggestive of foul play in relation to the cause of death and guilty knowledge during deposition."

Also:

"Approximately 20 years ago two large holes had been dug with the use of a mechanical digger at the request of staff at HDLG. The following day the staff caused the reinstatement of the ground without any explanation or obvious reason for the ground intrusion. These holes have since been excavated by the resident forensic archaeologists who discovered at the base of the hole hardcore and lime. Lime is a well known addition to deposition to aid the reduction of decomposition scent. Its inclusion in this scenario may be suggestive of suspicious activity although no human remains were found."

Pete

That's great Loco.

Apart from this probably coming from an old buriel sight for landfill maybe you can debunk that theory by giving us the name of a missing child now?

hairy flowers

not forgetting th old deciduous tree-stumps

Charlie David

Don't tell we have another one burying their head in the sand.

Loco

Ah yes, we can look at the computer records, or perhaps look for appeals from the parents of orphans who were classed as missing?

Do you really think back then it would be hard to throw a few sheets of paper away and have a child 'disappear'?

Fact remains that questions are left unanswered, and this needs to be addressed before we can have proper closure.

Yes, it could be the case that lime pits were dug, and these fragments are just from ancient burial grounds. However, as a very first port of call, there's a type of radiocarbon that only exists in bones after they started testing nuclear bombs in the atmosphere in the 1950's. This wasn't done, so the question still stands as to whether the bones are from 1950 or 1650.

Were we not going to leave no stone unturned?!

Baintree Bob

I don't think that you will find any computer records down there, unless they're on ticker tape or some other primitive medium.

Just wondering, now you mention it.

'Do you really think back then it would be hard to throw a few sheets of paper away and have a child ‘disappear’?'

I can remember at least one boy inmate who stopped coming to school and was said to have 'gone to England'.

Pete

Well thats very handy Loco.

Yes the Media are always tagging onto stories about unreported missing people who turn out to be coconuts.

Maybe it's time you got a life?

Catz

You have them owned Pete.