Teachers vote in favour of strike action

MEMBERS of the National Union of Teachers in Jersey have voted overwhelmingly in favour of possible strike action over the long-running public sector pay dispute.

NUT members during a protest march in town over pay and conditions
NUT members during a protest march in town over pay and conditions

MEMBERS of the National Union of Teachers in Jersey have voted overwhelmingly in favour of possible strike action over the long-running public sector pay dispute.

More than 82 per cent of those who took part in a recent ballot said that they were prepared to take strike action and more than 94 per cent indicated that they would take other industrial action short of a strike.

It comes months after the States broke off talks and imposed a three-year pay deal of a one-off bonus last year, a one-off bonus and 1% rise this year and a 4% rise next year dependent on staff accepting changes to their terms and conditions.

Comments for: "Teachers vote in favour of strike action"

Gael

They have not voted 'overwhelmingly' in favour of anything as the turnout was under 50%.

still waiting for decent journalism

Exactly - less than 50% turnout from 1 of the 3 unions. Better reporting would at least have reference to the proportion of all teachers this represents. But no, much more reactionary to stir up bad feeling against every teacher in the island. Sigh.

Mario

But still much more of a percentage than the politicians get. However that is good enough to get elected isn't it.

Lord Haw Haw

Will they strike during the summer vacation? After all they are always bleating on about how they have to spend their holidays, um, marking or arranging fetes. Lets see what am impact it makes if they do this.

Sir

'Arranging fetes'? Really?

Is that the level of your argument?

Dismissed.

Real Truthseeker

Disgusting behaviour. They say it isn't about money, sure thing, it is about greed. Everyone would bite their arm off to be a teacher with their conditions, they should be thankful.

I hope the States don't back down. One Union rep said that it isn't about money, it is about being able to negotiate. Rubbish it is them being greedy again, notice no one else goes on strike.

How many private sector employees get to negotiate?? They don't, long hours, no pay increases, teachers are VERY LUCKY!!!

Mark

If everyone would bite their arm to be off a teacher, why aren't you quitting your job to retrain?

Because your talking nonsense, that's why...

Kim

Well said Mark!! Having two teachers in the family I have wished many times that they would give up quite honestly because teaching is not great these days.They both love the actual teaching but do not enjoy coping with the huge range of troubled/misguided/badly behaved children whose parents are largely to blame for the behaviour of their offspring which can cause enormous difficulties in the classroom and beyond.Then of course there are the endless meetings,after school clubs,paperwork,parents wanting to discuss everything whenever they choose (then don't turn up for an agreed meeting!)Of course the holidays are great to the outsider who doesn't quite understand that teachers actually do work during the holidays but if they get the chance for a week away it is at extortionate prices! I could go on....

Matt

Get real Kim, what is great these days. You make it sound as if they swim in p.. all day & get peanuts. It should be a passion & when weren't kids badly behaved? Look at youth workers trying their best & they don't get half the money. They are actually complaining about a bonus. I got less money this year, but am thankful to still have a job. I do unpaid overtime like many others, so stop saying teachers have it bad. I have a friend in Jersey , she's a teacher and on a waiting list to get a permanent position. She'd happily take the job, even without the bonus. Today hundreds of teachers want more money & tomorrow it's the other states workers. Money has to come from somewhere, so taxes increase, prices go up even further & you get less for your money.

C@rLiNHo5

I say DON'T give them a pay rise. They get paid more than the average person as it is. Instead, save money and just employ a school warden (per school) to deal with unruly pupils, like a police officer/bouncer, who pulls them out of class, gets the parents in to discuss the issue, and deals with the parents instead of the teacher. If that's your only argument, then here's the solution, it'll save the tax payer money. Kids who don't behave get expelled and sent to le chene < however you spell that, if it even exists anymore, if it doesn't bring it back!

Kim

Matt- you ask when weren't kids badly behaved.A lot of children are NOT badly behaved but some are and can be very disruptive and at times even dangerous to other children and staff.But I am not just talking about bad behaviour-I also said troubled and misguided.If I could repeat on here some of the truly astonishing and sad incidents which I have heard about first hand I think you would get a better idea of what I am referring to but for obvious reasons cannot go in to detail here.Just today on the news we have heard that teachers now have to look out for children sexually abusing other children(9 year olds were referred to!)It can be a distressing job at times and teachers like social workers and some other professionals seem to get blamed for things which should actually be down to the parents who have little or no control over their children.

Gina

Why nonsense? They should be thankful that they still have a job.

Mark

Why should they? They work hard and unless they have messed up, they have no reason to be sacked.

Why should people be grateful for a job? If you work hard you deserve a job. It's not a privilege, it's a right if you're willing to earn it.

This rubbish about being "thankful" is exactly the sort of nonsense those at the top of the food chain want us plebs to think so they can justify taking away more rights and pay from ordinary people.

Wake up.

Renegade

Employment is a contract like any other. If I sell you my car why would I be grateful you'd bought it? A fair day's work for a fair day's wage, no gratitude necessary on the part of either party.

Real training seeker

No, he'd just rather bite someone's arm off. Retraining requires more intelligence.

Wrecker

Quit my job and used my savings to study to become a teacher. For the most part the pay and conditions are great!!! I expect a proportionate roof over my head and a comfortable life...all for the love of children and a relatively altruistic lifestyle compared to the culturally disturbing manifestation of Finance...

Agree - get off your backside though teaching is a good life style and presents some sound challenges compared to paper pushing.

I have halved my salary to do this and unless I can't pay afforentioned mortgage and live relatively comfortable would feel misplaced if my fellow teachers went on strike.

Scrutineer

Interestingly,I have been told by a teacher (imported) here that terms and conditions are much better here than in the UK. I assume that the teacher making this remark must have taken cost of living into account. If some teacher can prove that their colleague made an inaccurate comment then I am happy to have this information.

My reading of the history is that teachers wage claims are based upon job comparability when times are good in the private sector (and wages are rising at a good pace), and then switch to inflation when times are bad in the private sector (and wages are static or falling), thus aiming to get the best of both worlds.

The fundamental question remains: is there a shortage of teachers of the right quality?

Wrecker

Difficult to judge Scrutineer...with a two tier education system and far less socio-economic issues with Children in Private Schools and more attractive salaries, then there is a clear divide. However exam results seem to be a good benchmark aside from cultural enrichment and life skills acquired in education. You can guarantee those that voted to strike are mostly state school based!!! Harder challenges and conditions and I understand pay differences...

If you know my blogs I have some experience of actuarial calculations and the state pension is second to none!! Two thirds salary and no limits to it running out unless the states go bankrupt!!! There is the real cost of public sector and Ben Shenton was prepared to resign over it!! Controlling salaries is the way that the States have responded...

sporraN

The States will back down, they always do when public employees take industrial action (or threaten to), and the unions know it.

There will of course be some sort of fudge to cover the capitulation so that the politicians involved do not lose face with the electorate.

Kolly

So agree, just disgusting. You have teachers protesting for more money, while the kids they teach will probably never get a job on the Island. They rather protest, think of themselves & let the others pay more tax.

WB

'The kids they teach will never get a job on this island.' What rubbish. Unemployment is falling, and those children out of work are most probably on Advance to Work schemes or learning new skills at Highlands (all requiring the assistance of dedicated teachers).

Teachers pay tax too, and any increase to their wages would lead to more tax being paid into the system.

I wonder what you are doing to help the islands' unemployed, Kolly? A lot less than most teachers, I would hazard.

Surely your not a teacher

"Teachers pay tax too, and any increase to their wages would lead to more tax being paid into the system" -

With far more coming out to pay their salaries surely?

Baz Du Mont

Unemployment is falling, is it? Why don't we wait and see whether the last reported drop is actually a seasonal thing?

Kolly

@WB, I left the Island because you can't do anything in Jersey without connections. I wanted to start a business and employ people, but Competition isn't welcome in Jersey. Unemployment is falling, because people are leving Mr Clever:-)" Advance to Work schemes or learning new skills at Highlands (all requiring the assistance of dedicated teachers). What new skills can they learn from a teacher??????????? It still doesn't give them a job when they're finished & earning £7 the hour doesn't pay Jersey rents, great future. The public sector workers can't always expect payrise after payrise, because it's not happening in the private sector. This just means prices will have to go up further & next year the teachers complain again that they don't have enough money (like the other public sector workers)

Sensible

Without being too interested in this argument....

"Teachers pay tax too, and any increase to their wages would lead to more tax being paid into the system"

while they will increase their tax payments the gross figure needed to fund their rise would dwarf whatever extra they do pay. This money needs to come from somewhere.....

Mjolnir de Jersiaise

If our children pay attention to their teachers, and work hard to get a decent education, then they won't have to work on this boring Island will they? They'll be able to work anywhere they choose.

Mario

I look forward to you biting your arms off then since the private sector is so bad. You run the states into second place with all that hot air.

If you don't stand up for yourself you will get walked on, pure and simple...

Si

Really? You don't have a clue. The island is struggling so much for teachers they have PE teachers teaching Maths. Now if my child was in that class I would be livid.

Your belief in market forces falls apart in many sectors, including education and the sciences. For the island to attract teachers it looks like maybe they are going to have to raise salaries. A Maths degree can get you 6-figures easily in Jersey, and people need to pay for the roof over their head and don't know what tomorrow might bring, they'd be mad not to take a 6-figure job and get financially secure as soon as possible.

Ten Burpees, Go!

We used to have a PE teacher teaching us biology (badly) and he would only answer your questions in class if you were good at games.

Ross

Light the touchpaper...., go!

PJG

Sounds a good offer in these times of recession

Pity they feel they have to use our children's education as thier weapon

An education

They'll need all the help they can get, if your spelling's anything to go by.

Jim

It's not the children's education they are using - a day here or there is of no consequence. It's the disruption to working Mothers without access to emergency child care, who will be forced by the teachers' actions to go without pay themselves through no fault of their own. This is the reality.

In the Southerns' class struggle, some pigs are more equal than others.

Mario

Those at the top of the food chain are the equal ones. It is just that some can't see this, prefering to attack fellow workers.

If this had happened in the good old days, not that I ever remember it happening, as people were much better off in real terms, with a much better quality of life etc unlike now, then mothers wouldn't have been affected as they didn't work. This is the reality of progress. Good isn't it.

Si

Agreed Mario. The parents' concern is the inconvenience to them, not their kids. If they were worried about their kids' education they'd be wondering why kids have barely been at school since Easter, (I mean 'Activity Week' really?!?!?).

Renegade

Perhaps said mothers and fathers will have a good reason to get their government back to the negotiating table in that case? Industrial action is a last resort but once the States decided to impose their meagre pay offer it was highly likely, where were these parents then? Only when it looks like industrial action might inconvenience them do we start to worry - you can see now why the teachers are voting for it then!

Here we go again

55 million pounds going spare; time to give teachers the pay rise they deserve, thus restoring good will amidst a vitally under-appreciated and rapidly disillusioned section of the professional community, whilst pumping more money into the economy and helping stimulate the private sector.

OR

Scream about the fact that teachers have holidays and say 'they who can't teach' a lot and slag off the unions and moan about how you haven't had a pay rise for ages etc etc so why should they etc etc

Over to you, commentators...

joker

Most of the arguments for an increased salary as a solution in this HYS are dubious because the basis for arguing in favour for the increase seems to be more to do with the environment teachers work in rather than actual take home pay being insufficient to buy food etc. For example, you comment that the profession is disillusioned and under-appreciated. Sure, an increased salary could help but I don’t think that would solve the underlying problems which appear to be the additional expectations and hours required to deal with troublesome children and pick up where parents/society has failed.

The £55 million you quote would therefore be far better spent dealing with these problems in a more direct manor to reduce the stress on teaching rather than giving teachers additional salary. The former would attempt to reduce the problem, the latter is merely a sweetener to temporarily forget that these problems exist.

Over to you...

Mario

Well the worse you make the job the bigger the sweetener needs to be. Since stress is only going one way it leaves money as compensation. Teachers are leaving in droves soon there won't be enough to go around just like in the nursing profession. What will happen then?

Si

There already aren't enough, and they're using students as 'free teachers' in a way that just didn't happen when I was at school. Few of these students are teaching the subject they studied, and education are asking for details of people's degrees to see if they can, at a push, get away with teaching other subjects.

It is a very worrying trend. When a child is enthusiastic about a subject they need a teacher that really knows that subject, otherwise they lose their enthusiasm and don't do as well a they could. Also, your teacher should love the subject, but if it's not the subject they chose to study then they probably don't.

HWGA

Nice thinking, and yes I agree - though if you think that that society can be 'fixed' by an injection of money you are slightly misguided. It's a moral fix that is needed, a cultural shift involving (among other things) the insistence that learning and self-betterment through study is desirable, that education MATTERS.

Teachers are and have been on a steady wage decrease for years (relative to inflation, other sectors of society). The message this sends is that teaching as a profession is valued less by society - hence the value of the education provided by teachers is lessened as a result. The brightest graduates are lured elsewhere (law, medicine, finance) by the promise of greater salaries. Lift teachers' wages and you will start attracting more of these bright young professionals into education.

Vilify teachers and insist that they 'put up and shut up' and eventually this view filters down to the children, who come to view their teachers as somehow not worthy of their attention - they're much more interested in following those mega-rich and well paid members of our society…you know, those footballers, pop singers, movie stars etc. The people who REALLY matter.

josh

Your not a teacher then REAL TRUTHSEEKER!otherwise you would know how hard they work now! And with all the polictics in teaching its getting harder and harder to do there job. Maybe you should try training up for it and try your self and then comment after you have done a year or so, what a load of rubbish.

An education

I hope YOU'RE not a teacher!

Islander

I quit teaching years ago when all the red tape came in. It is a confrontational type of job and you have to be on the defensive all the time. Working in an office proved to be a million times less stressful especially when you were teaching at one of the, shall we say, more difficult schools teaching 14 and 15 year old who did not want to learn. To spend 7 hours in the company of some teenagers can be soul destroying and then, for all the effort you put in, you are still criticised. No win situation.

Kim

To spend 7 hours in the company of some teenagers can be soul destroying and then, for all the effort you put in, you are still criticised. No win situation.

:-)Parents do it every day without pay.....

Mario

Unfortunately parenting skills leave a lot to be desired now.

WB

You have 25+ kids do you? Spend 7 hours in a small room instructing / advising / teaching / controlling them every day do you? Sticking to a detailed, prescribed curriculum, marking work, dealing with bad behaviour and liaising with 25+ sets of parents?

Wow, yeah you're right. Parents are just like teachers.

Islander

...but in modern times parents choose when and where to have their little darlings and how to bring them up....teachers are on the receiving end of said 'choice', the result of which we are discussing on this board. Teachers are professionals, parents are, last time I heard, mothers and fathers.

Renegade

Unless they're the parents of 25 - 30 children all from different backgrounds and they have to try and impart actual information to them as opposed to just keeping a roof over their head and food in their stomach, then no, parenthood is a walk in the park by comparison - not to mention all the teachers who are also parents! :-)

alba gu brath

A good teacher would stimulate the pupils thereby encouraging them to learn. A bad teacher will never be able to retain the pupils' attention. (I know, I was a pupil once upon a time).

If you are a good teacher, you'll find teaching stimulating. As with any job, if you are not motivated, you'll find it hard and unrewarding.

Si

I would actually love to teach, and I have a 1st class degree in a subject the States are crying out for. But I am totally unimpressed with the standard of parenting these days and have seen how that affects the classroom. I prefer teaching to fixing other people's families, so I'll stick to private tutoring.

Renegade

I feel for you Islander, I left teaching for similar reasons as well as the very mediocre pay (in the UK your starting salary is just £20k).

I actually got into trouble with the management for telling students who were disruptive and clearly not interested to get out of my classroom.

They were distracting me and those who wished to learn and frankly I had quite a guilty pleasure in thinking of them being taken down a peg when they tried to show their "challenging behaviour" off to their boss if they quit school and got a job - we all know they'd be out on their ear.

However I was told to slavishly toe the party line which was to try and control the one little toe rag in the room instead of concentrating on the rest who wanted to learn.

I really admire people who have the patience to put up with this sort of thing, especially considering how little support there is available for them, and how little money they're paid.

Someone

I'm wondering who will care?

jerseythepartiesover

Good for them, anything that will bring down this out of touch government gets my support. The Jersey government is the enemy.

Rara

I think job security is the greatest bonus anyone could get. Striking is disgraceful but then you know the Government is doing something right if the Unions strike.

progressive thinker

Real Truthseeker - If you are what you say you are then you would know what the argument is really about! Obviously, you have no clue as to what modern teachers are expected to do;

inspire, motivate, parent, role model, counsellor, oh and somehow teach whilst too many parents can't even be bothered to be interested in their own! Then they are asked to put on extra curricular activities (sports etc and homework clubs) to replace the help, assistance and missing interaction that should be coming from home! Perhaps you could volunteer in your search for truth.

joker

Perhaps the answer then is to manage those expectations.

johnl

Perhaps the head of education could give some of his £130000 pay, yes one hundred and thirty thousand pounds pay to help his fellow teachers out.

Kermit

As if the teachers were the only one to have a stressful job...

40K a year come on...

Jim

Let's break this down. That the teachers are negotiating with the States Employment Board is irrelevant. What they are saying to other taxpayers is, basically, give us more of your money or we will disrupt your lives. They are saying that they are deserving of more money, and we are deserving of less. They are saying that private sector wage stagnation is irrelevant because price inflation is higher, in the same way that ten years ago they were disregarding price inflation because private sector wages were spiralling. They are being selective with their statistics and emotive with their language.

One thing they are not being is professional.

Teachers Pet

At last someone who understands the situation:-) Teachers should be there to improve kids lifes, why did they become teachers??????????? Instead, they want more & more money, while the kids parents will get less. Maybe the kid has talent & plays tennis etc. Oh sorry child, we can't afford the lessons anymore. Thank you teacher........

Nonsense

Agreed. Let's take it further though…doctors signed up to heal people, right? So why do they need money? Lawyers love working with the law..so why should we pay them anything? Firemen sign up for the excitement of fighting fire, yes? And they want MONEY as well? Priests love God…yet they want us to pay them a WAGE as well?

Think before turning on your keyboard. Stop posting rot.

Teachers need to be comfortable, secure and happy to perform at their optimum and be the best teachers they can be. Hence they need a decent rate of pay. At the moment their conditions of pay and standards of living are being eroded. Hence their protest.

Renegade

The cost of living went up around 3% year in the island, in 2011 it was the same again, all they're asking for is a pay rise in line with inflation, no extra cash -failing to ask for more money would mean an effective reduction in their wages.

Before anyone starts with the whole, "Yeah well I haven't asked for a cost of living pay rise for my job" - you should have done, you should be out there in the streets right now asking for the same thing, but if you don't want your salary to have the same purchasing power it did a year ago, feel free to suffer in silence.

Pet argument

Nobody begged the parents to have the kids but the law requires that they are taught. Why did they become parents????????????

mc

Jim. instead of trying to get a way with not paying the teachers a pay rise. Why not pay them well and ensure that all the schools have the best teachers money could buy. Even have (shock, horror) top teachers in the non fee paying school. Spending money on teachers (and nurses) is good for jersey. If you think for a second a singal penny of the money not spent on teachers is coming back to you you via a tax break you are very wrong.

Jim

If you are suggesting paying significantly more to get the best teachers to Jersey, I think that that would be worth political debate. But advocating paying more to current teachers won't improve standards at all.

Jim

Re your final point, I don't think you're understanding the point of principle I am making. The teachers aren't in disagreement with SEB per se, they are in dispute with taxpayers past, present and future who they are threatening unless we give up more of our hard earned (in one way or another) and give it to them.

Gax

Every teacher I know in Jersey is highly committed and will sacrifice themselves and their time to give the kids what they deserve.

It's time that teachers were more appropriately rewarded. Do other professions on the island deserve to be rewarded? Yes of course. Please do not deny us the same right.

When I was at school in the 70's teacher's drove to school in clapped out bangers; wore clothes with patches and lived in dilapidated houses. Morale was low and the quality of teaching abysmal. Do we want a return to those days? That's what will happen if salaries do not keep pace with the cost of living.

Think it through.

Jolly

Maybe they drove to school in clapped out bangers, because money wasn't as important and they wanted to teach. The teachers I had were amazing.

Gax

Maybe you went to a better quality school or were educated later when conditions and standards were improved?

This is the whole point. Do we want every child to have access to well motivated and quality teachers regardless of when and where they are educated?

Then pay them properly.

Jim

Please don't refer to any group who threaten to strike as professional. Any professional would not dream of putting their needs ahead of their client, their patient or the public. Professionals would never threaten to withdraw their labour.

Gax

Sorry but teachers are professional.

Jim

Clearly not. If they were, they would not even contemplate withdrawing from teaching children. I have to say that I don't think the majority want to sacrifice their principles - if most are as unprofessional as I mischievously imply, they'd have voted for a strike. But only a small minority of teachers did and I hope you would agree with me that their act of threatening strike action is unprofessional.

If you don't, I'd really like to hear what your understanding of being professional is.

Jarvy Bikes

Well, they sort of are. They call themselves that but they have always had a bit of a problem living up to their delusion.

Professional layabout

I think you are getting professionals mixed up with philanthropists.

Mjolnir de Jersiaise

What a load of rubbish! I've never met a Doctor, Lawyer or Accountant who would do anything for anyone, without charging extortionate fees; and they get far bigger salaries than teachers...

Jim

You're missing the point. No doctor, lawyer or accountant would withdraw their service to a client in the way that the teachers are threatening to withdraw theirs from children and parents.

Mjolnir de Jersiaise

Obviously they wouldn't want to risk losing any client who is willing and able to pay their huge fees. Anyway, they don't need to strike because they already earn much higher salaries than even Head Teachers.

God's Mentor

If they are going to strike then they will have to be quick - half term hols next week and then only a month or so until they are off on hols until September. I guess the issue many of us have is that we look at the offer on the table and wish that we were being offered the same in our professions. Personally I wouldn't want to be a teacher - the pay isn't great and many kids these days have little respect (behaviour they have learnt from their parents). But what I don't get is 1). This is a good offer (in today's climate) 2). You knew that the pay wasn't that great when you became a teacher - so why the endless call for your pay levels to be commesurate with other professional jobs? It ain't going to happen. If teachers are so unhappy with their pay then find an alternative career and stop this continual whingeing about conditions that you were aware of before you came into the profession.

David Rotherham

Yes, finding an alternative career is the next step, and there is already a bit of a problem with too many taking it. For instance, we have a shortage of maths teachers, one of the most important subjects of all.

Scrutineer

If demonstrably true, this is an important piece of data. We do need a decent supply of compatent maths teachers. I suppose that one surrogate measure of this would be to compare GCSE and A level grades with equivalent cohorts in the UK. Difficult piece of research to prove, I suspect, or at any rate likely to be challenged. The short school hours culture in Jersey does not help. If there is a shortage of competent maths teachers in the UK that will not help either!

Mario

I think you will find they didn't know that their conditions were going to be altered down the road.

Also you have pointed out that their pay is below par, so it is only logical to ask for more. A good offer is one that at least maintains your living standards and not one that is slowly driving you into poverty.

Teachers are becoming in short supply, carry on down this room and classrooms will be shut for another reason.

Scrutineer

see above - is this true about the supply of teachers (or at any rate good ones)? What is the evidence for this?

Also note the issue of T&Cs which are reportedly better for teachers than in the UK, presumably after CoL is taken into account (see the info I was given above).

La Bourboule

"Give us more" they cry. "How much do you get now?" I ask. "We're not telling you" they cry.

My point is, from outside the profession teachers get sweet holidays, and a significantly higher than average wage + pension.

Teachers might think they deserve more but have actually got it sweet.

Until they start talking numbers, instead of telling everyone they deserve more money because they had to mark some homework out of hours or deal with some naughty pupils or some suchforth, they should keep their hands off of my £55 Million which has already been earmarked for a multistorey petanque pavillion with bar and luxury bus service to my doorstep.

Bob l'Eponge

This argument can be settled quite easily. Perhaps one of the vociferous teachers would like to tell us all what their (complete) pay scale is. You won't find it in any job adverts, and they won't publicise it, because the public would be too annoyed. Teachers are very, very well paid and are indeed lucky to be employed. Most of those in the private sector would love to accept the offer the teachers have refused, which in current circumstances is generous. But it's not enough for all those piggies with their snouts in the trough....

BeanThereDoneThat

As someone who lives on one of the quieter roads in St Helier, which is also used by quite a large number of pupils at Haut Vallee.

During term time we witness on a daily basis loutish behaviour, the foulest of language as "Pupils" walk to and from the school. Accompanied by those that smoke and spit,drop litter etc, me thinks that the teachers up at "St Trinians" as we refer to Haut Vallee as, have been on strike for the past 5 years or more.

So it will make little difference in the case of this particular school if they opt to withdraw their labour.

EX-ISLANDER

I know exactly what you witness on a daily basis because I too used to live near Haute Vallee and saw the same behaviour as you describe. However you seem to hold the teachers responsible and not the parents? Teachers have to follow so much red tape these days-no more smacking an unruly kid over the head with a book like in the old days!! Parents should teach their children good manners and decent behaviour if it has not come naturally to the child and then perhaps teachers could teach?

Dan

Yes, thank you for summing up what modern teaching is all about. Now add to the stress by getting some suited business type to harp on about value added, and performance, should the little darlings you describe not get straight 'A's.

If good qualified teachers grow on trees then for christ sakes hire some and sack the ones you've got.

If not I suggest you treat them with some respect, and maybe pay them properly, then maybe you'll attract these mythical superbeings you seem to want instead.

BTW - are you really suggesting that it is the teachers responsibility to make up for the parents obvious shortcomings in teaching their children manners (as seems to be suggested by your post) ? We'll add that to the current list of unreasonable expectations shall we?

Ben

Businesses are judged on their output and schools should be judged in the same way.

As an employer I am frequently dismayed by the school leavers and graduates I interview.

Standards of mathematical ability and written English are poor and spoken English is often appalling. Inappropriate use of the word "like" and the phrase "you know" are particularly annoying.

We as a firm fund our staff to undertake professional exams but unfortunately very often the school and college leavers we see are just not fit for purpose.

Dan

They are. League Tables in the UK, and the JEP in Jersey.

If the standard of qualification is too low (as you seem to be implying), then that's a problem for the QCA, not teachers.

Mjolnir de Jersiaise

Schoolchildren are not "output" to be merely "utilised" by businesses. The purpose of education is to help each individual child develop to the best of their ability, for their own sake, not for the benefit of employers - you know?

Dan

Yes, the qualifications that teachers have to teach are below par. Another one for the unreasonable demands list. The problem you cite is with the QCA, not teachers...

thorpey

Lucky to have a job, cobblers, they've worked hard to get where they are, yes they get good leave but don't get fat bonuses like some do and no, i'm not a teacher.

realityCHECK

Teachers, Dentists, Doctors, Police, Nurses, Public Sector, Factory Worker.... We all work hard.

But NO ONE is having a rise - we are in a recession!!

Get real and stop moaning. Stop wasting your money. Save it instead!

Wake up, or go Bankrupt..... You were all warned years ago this was happening.

Be glad you have a job!

Flex

I disagree. Pay rises are happening all over. It's a myth. Small businesses are being hit I agree but not the Finance sector. Pay your taxes and get good services in return.

Pay teachers poorly but don't then complain about the quality of education on the island.

Jacky

Pay rises aren't happening all over + we're talking about bonus. These teachers still get a pay rise every year. Even pilots, nurses & doctors across the world are getting less. Teachers that have been working for 20 years already get massive salaries and especially in Jersey. Are you blind, or don't you see that pay rises in the public sector caused the mess. Teachers salaries are coming from the private sector, so if this sector is suffering what do they expect?????????? There are thousands of qualified teachers that would love a job, so stop moaning and teach. You already get a fair pay and you can't expect to drink more water if we have a drought. They want the kids to respect each other, then just accept we have a recession.

Jim

Wouldn't it be perverse to pay more money to the current teachers who are responsible for what you imply is poor quality? If we want to pay even more money to get a higher quality, shouldn't we spend that on new and better teachers? If a teacher wakes up in the morning and decides that they are not going to give their best because they think they can get paidd more elsewhere (a) they are unprofessional (b) they are deluded if they think they can command a higher salary in the private sector and (c) do we really want people with that attitude teaching our kids?

Gax

Pay the teachers appropriately or expect a drop in standards. High quality services have to be paid for we all know that.

Flex

I'm with the teachers. The future of our kids is in their hands.

Real Truthseeker

You sound like the Reverends wife in the SIMPSON's... "Think of the children"...

No flex, the future of the kids are in the parents hands... god forbid we left it to teachers!

R. Williams

Many teachers complain about the behaviour of the children. It is not all the fault of the parents, more likely due to peer pressure. I'm sure many parents would be horrified if they knew how their children sometimes behave. Perhaps there needs to be more interaction between the parents by the teachers.

In the event of a truly disruptive child, where at present a child is excluded from school, I would like to see a court order given whereby the parent had to accompany the child during lessons regardless of the inconvenience and disruption it would cause to the parent's life and work. I think that would soon make a difference to attitudes.

thinking

Teachers are generally poorly equipped to handle challenging children, be it a lack of training, lack of interest, lack of empathy, or something else. Schools I am afraid do not work closely enough with the support services to manage and guide appropriately. Perhaps the fault does not lay with the teachers, but more the school management in failing to provide the right tools.

Children are not automatons that all act and react in a defined way, but to bludgeon them with blunt teaching tools when behaviours stray outside the narrow parameters expected, results in issues in the classroom. It is the clever teacher than adapts their teaching methods in a classroom of many and takes a flexibe and bespoke approach that yields success and harmony. Unfortunately there are not many in this league. I vote to reward those that do with performance related pay, and those that do not, accordingly.

WB

You seem pretty confident in your analysis. I trust that you have a great deal of classroom experience? I'd be interested to hear where you witnessed them being 'bludgeoned with blunt teaching tools,' especially as effective differentiation forms the backbone of most teachers' planning.

jolly roger

Good points. Comments around teachers not being able to control kids sounds more like excuses for ineffectiveness.

In any event, seems to be a good wage even without the great hols. Look at what nurses earn, or firefighters, risking lives.

Islander

Thinking, you sound as if you have been on an educational psychology course. When I did my MA in Education that was the 'psycho babble'in the tomes we trawled our way through. However, reality is a different matter. At the end of the day it boils down to the fact of whether you really want to spend your days and and months and years and skills with ill mannered children who yonks ago would have been dealt with by tough masters!

Islander

Hear, hear R. Williams.

Flash

All States of Jersey payscales can be found here:

http://www.gov.je/Working/WorkingForTheStates/Pages/CivilServicePayscales.aspx

Bob l'Eponge

So a senior teacher ( not a head or deputy head) with some (limited) managerial input has to make do with £60,000!

Boo Hoo..., how awful, how do they get by...?

thinking

Thanks for the payscale link Flash. A quick look at this shows :

Teacher 32-48k

Youthworker 28-46k

Firefighter 30-40k

Paramedic 36-49k

Looks like Teachers have an uphill struggle to convince anyone that they are underpaid, especially taking into account the greater number of holidays compared to most other 'normal' folk. And yes some of us 'normal' folk also end up working holidays, weekends, and extra hours unpaid. We are glad to have a job.

But pay rises are not about cost of living. They are about market forces and economic climate. There is no business logic in fixing pay to RPI - we need to link pay to performance and markets. Then perhaps we might see an improvement is the quality of the output of certain roles.

teacherspet

Having examined the link that Flash provided, all states employees appear to have been treated equally, and salaries seem broadly aligned across roles of similar status - if anything teachers are better paid than others, and with better holidays. Using our children as political pawns is not the way to gain public support.

Dan

A quick google of graduate level jobs suggests that, teaching starts off on par, but actually tapers off towards the top end. Only 'teacher' and 'paramedic' require a degree level qualification.

As for 'using our children as pawns', what else do you suggest they do? It's my understanding that the states broke off negotiations and simply told them to put up with what they've been offered.

Also, may I point out that everybody seems to think that they want a blank cheque right now. I feel (reasonably) sure that a deal could be struck to improve conditions (which improves education) and pay over a few years.

As I understand it the states insist on negotiating year by year, with no plan hashed out for the future, only the spectre of 'modernisation' which is a euphemism for just about anything you can name. Teachers are not business people, you can't treat them like that, they'll just strike, of course they will, you need to present them with a plan, not an offer, it's not a second hand car you are buying......

roger

Thinking has hit the nail on the head. Market forces give rise to appropriate pay.

He did not mention nurses who study for equivalent level qualifications for less holidays and less pay.

Teachers will not gain support this way on such a sticky wicket.

Have a nice week off teachers - again!

Teachers earn a decent wage - well above the average wage and probably on par with your 'average' finance worker.

Teachers get more holidays than any other profession I know (approx 3x more than me).

Teachers work no more unpaid overtime than your average finance worker and quite probably less.

Your average finance worker does not and has never received a 'big fat' bonus. The last bonus I had was a grand and that was some years ago now.

Your average finance worker has not had a rise for a few years now. Teachers have and will.

Every year schools close due to snow, pandemic threat and god knows what else (over a week so far this year). Your average finance worker manages to make it in.

Your average finance worker doesn't receive free parking.

Your average finance worker doesn't get to go on unpaid jollies (Ski trips / Activity weeks / WW1 battle grounds etc.)

The list goes on but it's late and some finance workers have to start really early (and stay late) to catch the global markets.

Give the money to nurses instead. They deserve it!